helenix: Layers of Steam, Streaming

Luminanima (

helenix) wrote,
@ 2008-05-28 13:22:00

Current mood:	luminous
Current music:	wind&rain&sun

Layers of Steam, Streaming
It comes to this:
When I even so much as think that I may know what is best for another on their journey, I am making a judgment. I have come to know it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge another without judging some aspect of my Self.

I have known this for some time, though too often have my actions been incongruous with this understanding. Too frequently do I find my Self discussing how another 'ought' to be handling some detail of their life. I expend energy on frustration at their missing the lesson. What sort of attitude toward my own growth does this reveal?

There are also times when, instead of grumbling about someone, I pray for their learning to unfold exactly as it must in accordance with the Grand Harmony. I release my wishes, trusting Wind to carry those seeds, trusting Sun & Rain to nurture their Desire to be born. Then, with eyes turned inward, I look to dis.cover what I can do within my Self to effect the change I wish to see.

Less of the former, more of the latter.

Dying periodically is perfectly natural.

My thought is this:
Ignorance is a phase Innocence moves through
on her journey to become Wisdom.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone." in deed.

I Love...

(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	anomniverse 2008-05-28 08:39 pm UTC (link)
	I get this feeling, that you are a very special person, helenix. I would really like to talk to you sometime, or someday... if you are open to it. Truly, you do Love. Keep going and don't stop! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	helenix 2008-05-28 08:41 pm UTC (link)
	I'm online right NOW, Charles! I have gmail, which has chatting, & I have msn. do you have either? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Deleted post)

	helenix 2008-05-28 08:50 pm UTC (link)
	log in to gmail & i'll open the chatting window for us. ^__________^ (Reply to this) (Parent)

anomniverse
2008-05-28 08:50 pm UTC (link)

Ok actually, I don't remember it's password... But I'm considering just signing up for msn one of these days since I have so many friends on it as it is. I actually can't talk now anyways since I just remembered a promise to go pick up something for my brother. Another time! If you want to leave your contact info for msn on my journal or send me a message with it, you're more than welcome to :-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	helenix 2008-05-28 08:54 pm UTC (link)
	excellent. another time it is, :) my msn contact info iiiiis lucidityjunkie@hotmail.com get msn & add me. the world will be a better place! (Reply to this) (Parent)

saerundis
2008-05-28 11:43 pm UTC (link)

Ignorance is a phase Innocence moves through
on her journey to become Wisdom.

it has been necessary for me to die to learn my hardest lesson. i always wonder, though, "did i miss the lesson?" and then realize, no, there's no way i could have. i died, fully, to learn it. there is no halfway-death.

death, always, has brought me back to love.

so you are right, it is necessary to let others learn the lesson rather than worrying about whether they're missing the point. everyone learns their own unique lesson through their very own death. it is impossible to judge another person's progress [or "lack" of progress] against our own. it's like comparing 5 and the color silver.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	helenix 2008-05-29 01:08 am UTC (link)
	i have a present for you. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	saerundis 2008-05-30 06:36 am UTC (link)
	excellent. i have a few for you. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	helenix 2008-05-30 06:38 am UTC (link)
	you are so fucking beautiful, lady. it hurts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	saerundis 2008-05-30 06:46 am UTC (link)
	also: wow, after reading the rest of the threads here, i am a bit blown away and wish i had more useful things to say regarding this subject. :P i learn! (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	helenix 2008-05-30 06:50 am UTC (link)
	meeee too. it's pretty much what we can do. you're online! (Reply to this) (Parent)

this is more for my benefit, than yours.

ioncedreamtyou
2008-05-29 12:49 am UTC (link)

Judgment is rooted in faith, specifically, in our own understanding.

It is impossible to judge another, without believing we are self aware, or that we understand ourselves, as understanding others comes from understanding your self. A minute distinction, but it lies at the root of the classic saying, "Know thyself." See, also, the eastern trend of thought, "From one thing, know ten thousand."

It's also been said that true understanding comes at the expense of self.

The difference between understanding and acceptance is wide. Understanding, in this instance, is a function of intellect (recognition and comparison) and is flawed only by how thorough, or true, your understanding of your self is. At its heart, the line of thought that springs from thinking that there is no self, means, simply, that any person who grasps that their personality comes from a collection of reactions ("good" or "bad" categorizations, for instance - "I like this" "I do not like that") transcends the idea of 'self', by having discarded judgement. There's a paradox, here, but I don't think this is a logical path. This is why death is not scary, to some people - there's not really anything there, that will die.

"There are also times when, instead of grumbling about someone, I pray for their learning to unfold exactly as it must in accordance with the Grand Harmony. I release my wishes, trusting Wind to carry those seeds, trusting Sun & Rain to nurture their Desire to be born. Then, with eyes turned inward, I look to dis.cover what I can do within my Self to effect the change I wish to see."

You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.

Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.

Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.

Ignorance is not limited to the innocent. Romanticizing it won't bring you understanding. This will sound harsh, but I'm saying it because I think you need to hear it: You're calling yourself innocent, because you want to be innocent. If you were truly innocent, you'd have no idea - and I don't believe you'd have the trouble you express, in accepting people.

There's who we are, there's who we want to become, and there's who we think we are. Stripping away what we think, discarding what we want, these are the keys, as I understand them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

helenix
2008-05-29 01:05 am UTC (link)

Hmm. Much to think about.

For now, I'll respond only to the part where I feel I was not understood.

I am not speaking specifically of my self when I speak of innocence. I am speaking of the state of innocence that we are born with. Innocent awareness. Many people, my self included, reject certain ideas (experiences, ways of being, etc) when they encounter them. We 'turn a blind eye'; we ignore. I feel that this is a natural reaction to certain horrors that were not conceived of by us while in the state of innocence. To cling to innocence by denying truth is to be ignorant. I think it is a natural phase that a self-conscious being may go through as their innocence becomes knowledge, & as knowledge becomes Wisdom.

Do you see what I'm saying?

What brought this thought up for me was my contemplation of the adage "Be ye wise as serpents & innocent as doves."

Thanks for the thought-food, Mister.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. ioncedreamtyou 2008-05-29 01:19 am UTC (link)
	Hmm. The gender-specific pronoun threw me. Innocent awareness is accomplished through lack of self. "Yes and no" "good and bad" "His and hers" all lead to self, which takes away innocence. Again, destruction of the thing in us that judges (Which we call 'self') is, to me, the answer. Acceptance and innocence are closely knit, I think. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

helenix
2008-05-29 01:28 am UTC (link)

Ahh, yes. The gender-specific pronoun was used to reflect my understanding of polarity: Yin & Yang, Dark & Light, Egg & Sperm, etc.

I consider Innocence to be on the 'feminine' or receptive end of the spectrum, whereas I view Wisdom to be on the 'masculine' or projective end.

While I'm moving from innocence (through ignorance) toward wisdom, i think it better to simply pray for others & act on changing what I can in my self, which my feelings about others' paths will bring to light for me. Instead of directing negative thoughts toward them, & wasting my own energy, I can use their 'mistakes', as I see them, as teachers. Receptivity, listening, as you suggest.

I believe there is great value in trusting the unfolding of the Universe.

Another adage, "resist not evil."

"Acceptance and innocence are closely knit, I think."

I agree.

I think I may with the intention to destroy the 'thing that judges'. I wonder if destruction is resistence. I wonder if my energy would be better spent embracing the thing that judges, the smaller-self, shall we say. Or 'ego', if you prefer. If I simply allow ego to float in larger, more compassionate, awareness, does it not dissolve of its own accord?

I find it does.
But that is my experience.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. ioncedreamtyou 2008-05-29 01:43 am UTC (link)
	I think that believing in duality is wrong, because it takes you further from the idea of one. If you and I are of the same stuff, we are not two. Destruction, in my usage, merely implies intent. I don't know that you can destroy something that doesn't really exist, save that you let it. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

helenix
2008-05-29 08:23 pm UTC (link)

Is decreeing something to be 'wrong' not embracing duality? 'Right' vs. 'Wrong'.

I don't find that understanding the apparent duality of the physical universe takes me further from the higher reality of unity.

I tend to see apparent dualities in terms of their unity. In order for something to exist, something must balance it. Dark & Light, being the most obvious of these, to me. Both exist simultaneously. Both require the other to exist in the first place. Therefore, they are one. A unity of opposites.

I use the word polarity in-stead of duality for this reason: polarity recognises the opposing ends of one thing, rather than dividing one into two.

I had a moment the other week when I was meditating on the idea of this physical experience as illusion. I've long held the belief that this is illusion. Then a voice in my head (my Higher Self, God-Self, True Self, whatever word you like to use) floated through with the question, "Do you PERCEIVE the illusion?" I had to admit that I do indeed perceive it. "All that we perceive is real."

The existence of a higher reality (unity) does not negate the existence of a lower, or denser, reality (the polarisation of the unity).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. ioncedreamtyou 2008-05-30 03:35 am UTC (link)
	Hmm. I'll take that apart, at my liesure. I do, however, think that the split, here is between reality, and perception - I don't think that perception is real, necessarily, it just feels that way. I don't recognize two realities, just that we overlay a false perception over actuality. We're going a little further into this than I've wandered. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. helenix 2008-05-30 03:41 am UTC (link)
	Take your time, friend. I didn't say two realities. I said layers. I do agree that there is a divide between subjective truth & objective truth. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Sorry, I couldn't help it

anomniverse
2008-05-30 04:14 am UTC (link)

Is decreeing something to be 'wrong' not embracing duality? 'Right' vs. 'Wrong'.

Yeah, it is. ioncedreamtyou chose his words poorly. That's all.

I don't find that understanding the apparent duality of the physical universe takes me further from the higher reality of unity.

You're right. Even if duality is artificial, it is reality as we see it in every day lives. We aren't here to destroy our egos- THAT is blatant duality. Indeed to achieve enlightenment, ego and imagination must be at work... in particular ways. Impermanence is at the root of everything, and clinging to some sensation of ego-death will only bring suffering. Ego, in a sense, ought to be embraced.

I had a moment the other week when I was meditating on the idea of this physical experience as illusion. I've long held the belief that this is illusion. Then a voice in my head (my Higher Self, God-Self, True Self, whatever word you like to use) floated through with the question, "Do you PERCEIVE the illusion?" I had to admit that I do indeed perceive it. "All that we perceive is real."

What perceives it?

.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: Sorry, I couldn't help it helenix 2008-05-30 04:23 am UTC (link)
	IT perceives ITself. Awareness. That's all. That's all I am, at my most fundamental level. A point of awareness in a sea of consciousness. & Yet... the drop of water IS the sea. <3 (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

anomniverse
2008-05-29 12:41 pm UTC (link)

Good thoughts, ioncedreamtyou. I want to ask you about this:

You're praying that the world will be as it is. It doesn't need your prayers, it needs your action. Right action goes further than prayer - you can pray for other people, sure, but I don't think that's how it works. Prayer is, too often, a request for guidance, whether for ourselves, or others.

Guidance is intuition, intuition is developed by listening. You can't pray someone into being self aware, without taking away their choice in the matter. Not your perogative. You can learn to listen.

Most prayer, I think, goes wrong by being a request, and not an admission. If you pray by simply being honest - "I am weak, I hurt, I am afraid, and these are the reasons why..." well. There's the path to destruction of self (Or, if you prefer, self awareness), at least as I see it.

This interests me because I’ve been thinking about prayer lately. I don't pray, though I have at times felt an impulse to. I'm willing to believe this is linked to my childhood Christian habits, and that the reason I do not act on the impulse is because I am still unsure whether a God or some great Listener actually exists or doesn't exist. Until I'm able to further understand this realm of existence, I'll only work at attempting to recognize it in meditation and keep myself open to any enlightening experiences that may come my way.

Now, I'm not so sure blatantly labeling prayer as useless is wise. What I think is really at the root of this, is that you think you are truly in control of every aspect of your existence. I'm not so sure this is healthy. I find my imagination leads me to the attractive conclusion: that, at the root of it all, we are in control; but what proof do I have yet? On the other hand, all too often, the world changes in tremendous ways that are outside of our control. How we react to these changes, I am willing to believe, are our own choice. But still, there are great powers operating at every instant that I am unaware of, or perhaps even incapable of being aware of presently. Very real elements in the world are proof of this, let alone my very existence and consciousness.

In understanding this, I understand there is much more to understand. You may have had some experience which has shed some light on this, but I fail to see it from the words you have chosen. "Guidance is intuition"? How can you be sure? Are you that much in control? Is to think in such a way, a good thing? I understand what you are saying, ioncedreamtyou- I really do- but how do you know that praying for someone to have some enlightening experience is fruitless? (Really, I'm tempted to say, how can you know?) And moreover, how can you know it is not one's prerogative? On a somewhat unrelated subject, what do you think of humanity's worldwide history of prayer?

I'm tempted to think, that to be willing to understand that asking is as important as "simply being honest", is a good path to the destruction of ego.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

ioncedreamtyou
2008-05-29 04:59 pm UTC (link)

I'll own that I have rather violently rejected the generally accepted view of the uses of prayer - "Dear God, I need a new carburetor. Thanks --Steve" -- but I don't think prayer is useless. I feel it's a time to be internally naked, in front of your God.

I don't feel that every aspect of my existence is malleable - I can't change the fact that, up to a certain point, being a white male has influenced my worldview. I can, however, learn to recognize that particular veil, in questioning constantly the roots of my motivations.

"How we react to these changes...are our own choice." Well, yes, exactly. Look at emotion, for instance. I'm not a good enough person to immediately be emotionally unaffected by the actions of others. I am, however, capable of measuring my actions, and understanding which things, within myself, are rooted in said emotional response, and taking care not to react from that place.

"Guidance is intuition,": For me, God is a very internal experience. I forget that other people focus so much more outside of themselves, than I do. When I want to see God, I close my eyes and look inside. It's rooted, a bit, in my belief that God's not "that kind" of force, again, in the "gimme my pony/carburetor/new job" sense. I rather firmly believe that learning to get in touch with God (Or, whatever you call it - The Big-G-Word is a convenient label, I'm not cramming Xtianity down your face.) is merely learning to understand yourself, the better to deal with the world --but that's how I choose to walk.

I read a story, once, where God was described as only taking an interest in the interactions between molecules --and here, my understanding of chemistry is fuzzy. I'm getting there, in college-- that no one really understands why bonding follows the patterns it does, to create the basic things we take for granted, that it was God's only real job, providing that material stability for us to play out our weird little dramas on, as we move away and return. This is the most comfortable depiction of God's will, to me. Insofar as our lives are concerned, this leads me to believe that it's not God's job to provide anything else, but our job to learn to provide stability, in the same manner.

So, praying for someone else to have a realization is like hitting yourself in the foot with a shovel, for their mortgage, to me. Praying for God to put forth his(or her! I don't think Gender matters, here, so the terms are interchangeable to me) hand and change a person takes away their choice, for one thing, and assumes that they can't do it, for another. Mind, this is merely how I think about such things. I make no claims about being the absolute 'right' - right and wrong are, I think, subjective.

As far as the worldwide history of prayer, I don't know. I only have my (admittedly, in a global sense, limited) personal experience to draw from. Though I enjoy the Sufistic idea of prayer as a way to achieve "annihilation, in God." and I like the idea of Zen meditation, and know nearly nothing about Buddhist prayer.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours.

helenix
2008-05-29 05:47 pm UTC (link)

My prayer for 'the world to be as it is' is more-so an admission that I do NOT know what is 'best' for another, that I am small & fallible & learning, growing, all ways changing.

It is for my own piece of mind, rather than a supplication for someone to have an enlightening experience. It is my way of letting go of my desire to help. When asked, I can be there in whatever capacity I feel guided (yes, by intuition). But I can't just go into people lives & rearrange things in a more pleasing (to me) symmetry. Like you said,that intention is a masked desire to removed another's free will.

I feel like what I meant has not come across clearly to you a-tall, ioncedreamtyou, & that we're arguing semantics.more than anything else.

I appreciate the challenge to deepend the articulation of my thoughts. I too-often develop my own 'codes', & some understand them, & some don't. Often years later I go back & don't remember what I was actually trying to say.

Maybe this is an indication to me that it is time to work on building stronger linguistic bridges between my mind & the minds of others.

I really enjoy this thread.

<3

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. ioncedreamtyou 2008-05-30 03:38 am UTC (link)
	For being a poet, I'm blatantly bent towards plain language. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. helenix 2008-05-30 03:43 am UTC (link)
	laughing I can see that, & I admire that in you. I can't emphasise enough how timely this conversation is. I was just challenged by another to deepen my own ability to articulate my thoughts. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: this is more for my benefit, than yours. anomniverse 2008-05-29 06:58 pm UTC (link)
	Ok. Let's leave it there. cheers, Charles (Reply to this) (Parent)

13_tezcatlipoca
2008-05-29 01:43 am UTC (link)

Dying periodically is perfectly natural.

So very true...

I am very close, just pressed behind the glass, found your lovely wingwords like spangled emerald eggs in my little nest the other day, but I've been inside the dreams again, trying to capture their likenesses as they spin past like the universe so quickly, and thus I have somewhat been abandoning those I call friends, I'm afraid, for the first siren calls in so many years. It's exhilerating, but in the way suns must feel burning up. Just wanted you to know your letter is precious-kept and nevernever ignored. <3

(Reply to this) (Thread)

beautiful lady of firefly-wings & solar-winds...

helenix
2008-05-29 09:46 pm UTC (link)

Your words to me are like liquid jewels secreted away in pockets of darkest-night. You have all my love, in your dreamtime image-hunting. A star, in good health, dies & is born & burns itself out, only to die & begin the cycle a-new. A star is classified as a 'never ending cycle'. Time, perhaps, for a new Name? Moon-child has served her well... & now it is your wonder-full mouth which must re.o.pen the ancient tome.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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